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H22 Tuning.

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  • #16
    Originally posted by tg1_in_france
    Is it still streetable or is it something that should be done on race only engines?
    Just got in from CDG airport earlier tonight 12.5 hr flight + 3 hr drive.

    Anyway, individual throttle body setups are pretty much for race engines. I guess you could use them on the street but any Ka (saw those goofy looking cars there) would probably take you until you got into the higher rev ranges. This setup allows maximum air ingestion but at lower RPMs there is not enough velocity for the air to get crammed into the cylinders. During a race situation (not drag) the engines are kept in their powerband (usually at high RPMs) via gearing.

    I just replied to a thread about intakes, same thing applies.

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    • #17
      Ok, that seems to make sense.

      Quick question on raising the compression:

      If Iím aiming for a target of around about 12.5:1, what is the most reliable/safest and cost efficient way to do this?

      Reading around I see three ways of raising the compression.

      A) Forged high compression pistons (which would require the block to be resleeved, but I believe the type S pistons raise it to 11:1 without the need for resleeving)
      B) Thinner head gasket.
      C) Shaving material from the head.

      Is it only necessary to do one of these things to get the desired result or would you have to do a combination to get the compression up to 12.5:1

      Thanks for your patience with me, it much appreciated.

      Ben
      Pain is temporary, quitting lasts forever.

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      • #18
        Just as an FYI, it is also possible to raise the CR via the valves - I believe Skunk2 makes valves that take up more space in the combustion chamber, raising the CR.

        But for something as high as 12.5:1, a resleeve & new pistons would be the best bet. It might be possible to get close to that by using some combination of Type S pistons, an aggressively decked block/head, thinner head gasket, and high CR valves, but I wouldn't recommend it. The more complicated the combination, the more likelihood you'll run into problems with valve clearance - especially when you start playing with aggressive cams.

        Plus, tuning becomes difficult. As the cams move closer to the block, cam timing gets retarded - so you have to invest in adjustable cam gears & spend some time dialing in your cams with them to get things back to where they should be.

        But forged pistons have other advantages besides raising your the CR - their heat transfer properties are better, so they're able to resist pre-detonation. And of course, they're much stronger - so they're better able to survive if you do have some detonation at any point.

        If you're looking to do a resleeve, something that might be worth looking into is using replacement sleeve liners instead of going with an entire resleeve that costs $800-$1,000.

        LA sleeve liners are only like $15 a piece - so you then just need to find a competent machine shop to install them (replacing the stock FRM sleeve liners). All told, it could end up being less than half as expensive as a full-on turbo resleeve. They obviously won't be as strong the ones done companies like Golden Eagle (guaranteed to like 40 psi or some ridiculous number), and you probably won't be able to overbore much on them, but for a N/A build, they may be worth looking into.

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        • #19
          As before, Iíll keep my petty questions together rather than clutter up Daemioneís great post.

          Anyways, in part 3, you stated:

          The intake manifolds that are available (STR, Venom, Golden Eagle & AIR come to mind), should only be considered for high-boost turbo applications or EXTREME all motor applications.
          What makes these intake manifolds only suitable to forced induction applications? What would you look for differently in a n/a intake manifold?

          http://www.autospeed.com/cms/A_0122/article.html

          When reading through the above page, I was interested by the part about custom fabricated intakes. I know this is an expensive solution to the problem but if there isnít any aftermarket items that are specifically suited to n/a applications, it might be something Iíll look into.

          On there it says:

          A starting point for working out the length and diameter of intake runners can be gained from the following equations. In a Helmholtz Resonance system (one with runners connected to a common plenum), US-based engineering guru David Vizard suggests that a runner length of 17.8cm at 10,000 rpm makes a good starting point. (In this context, "runner length" refers to the distance from the inlet valve to the plenum chamber.) Add to this length 4.3cm for each 1000 rpm less that the system is being tuned for. Tuning for peak torque (not peak power) is the norm, and so if the engine were being tuned for 4000 rpm, a runner length of 43.6cm would be required. You can see that for an averagely-sized engine bay, the longer the runner that can be fitted in, the better!
          I know this is a huge generalisation but is it a good place to start designing something new and unique?

          Anyways, if anyone wants to throw in there 2 cents worth I'd like to hear what people think.

          Ben
          Pain is temporary, quitting lasts forever.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by tg1_in_france
            What makes these intake manifolds only suitable to forced induction applications? What would you look for differently in a n/a intake manifold?

            http://www.autospeed.com/cms/A_0122/article.html

            When reading through the above page, I was interested by the part about custom fabricated intakes. I know this is an expensive solution to the problem but if there isnít any aftermarket items that are specifically suited to n/a applications, it might be something Iíll look into.
            Cool link - definitely bookmark worthy.

            Yeah, the things that make those manifolds unworthy of a typical n/a application are all the dimensions discussed in that article - plenum volume, runner length, and runner diameter. Plus, on a manifold designed for forced induction use, attempts at resonance tuning are often thrown right out the window with a goal of absolute maximum flow. A pressurized manifold is a completely different environment than one under vacuum.

            I honestly am not too familiar with the exact principles involved in resonance tuning as discussed in that article. It would seem that those equations and guidelines would be a good starting point, but I personally leave that sort of design up to an expert - someone who's had the resources available to actually dyno test different shapes and sizes of runners & plenums.

            Although knowing something about the principles involved would certainly be invaluable in interviewing potential design/fabricators . . . .

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            • #21
              Just an FYI, I found another good writeup on Intake Manifold Tech in the Articles section of www.team-integra.net. It's got similar guidelines on runner length/diameter, and goes into some more detail on plenum displacement than the Autospeed article.

              You have to register to get access to the site, but it's worth it - there's a ton of good engine theory & design information there.

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              • #22
                Thanx, that's a really good site.

                What rpm do you think the intake on an Attack should be tuned to?
                Pain is temporary, quitting lasts forever.

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                • #23
                  For an H22? Depends a lot on your cams . . . and your preference.

                  The stock torque peak is right around the VTEC x-over (5,000-5,400 rpms). So you can try and enhance that peak some more, or broaden it by aiming a little higher, like 6-6,300. With aggressive cams, you might aim as high as 6,800-7,000 - but you'll obviously be sacrificing some low-midrange at that point.

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                  • #24
                    Donít waste your time I have a O mile H22A mugen I donít need itís a back up on my f300 Dallara 360hp

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